122: Paul Saladino Is Not a Fan of Sauna Anymore

Speaker: Can sauna actually hurt your recovery in longevity and like what? That's crazy. Sauna bathing is great for your health. Right? Well, that's what I thought. And then I came across a YouTube video, uh, with Paul Saladino, also known as the Carnivore MD back in the days. And he said that he's not excited about sauna anymore, especially for people who are already pushing hard, like in the gym or who have stress for life.

And that kind of intrigued me to dig a little bit deeper and think more about. Who Sauna Bathing is for and who it is not for, you know? And to be fair, and I'm gonna link the video down below so you can check it out and, and listen to it yourself. But he brings up a couple of solid points. And in this episode, I wanna do three things.

First of all, I wanna lay out Paul's arguments as clearly and fairly as possible. Number two, walk through what the science actually says about sauna and longevity recovery and metabolic health, and all of the other benefits that you typically associate with sauna bathing. And then give you some practical no BS guidelines for when sauna is a great idea and when it might be too much on your system.

And by the end, I want you to be able to answer this for yourself, given my lifestyle. My training and my stress load is Sauna helping me or overloading me? So let's get to it. Welcome to the Primer Shift podcast. Let's first start out with, um, you know, not straw Manning, you know, Paul, and talk about what he said or what I understood in this video.

And again, I'm gonna link it down below so you can watch it yourself and then come to your own conclusions. But he uses this concept of. Allostatic load, you know, basically your total stress bucket, training, heart, poor sleep, work, stress, kids waking you up at night, stimulants, undereating, emotional stress, it all goes into the same bucket.

Now, add sauna to that. You know, it raises you. Core body temperature. It spikes stress hormones like cortisol. It drops HRV at least short term, or it can, it can raise blood sugar temporarily. And I've seen this while I was wearing my CTM. He got a huge spike in blood glucose, similar to high intensity exercise.

And his point is that if your bucket is already almost full, the extra stress from sauna might push you over the edge and not make you more resilient. The second thing that. The second point he makes is, and you've probably seen the headlines, you know, uh, that the whole longevity angle of sauna bathing might be overhyped.

You know, and if you've watched the news or you know, looked on social media, you've probably heard, you know, headlines such as, you know, sauna bathing four to seven times a week, you know, cuts all cause mortality by 40%. Or frequent sauna users have way less cardiovascular disease and part. Question is, who were these guys?

You know who, who is that cohort of those studies? And if you look closely, you know, a lot of those observational studies from Scandinavia, you know, they are mostly older Finnish men, and many of them are sedentary. For some of them, sauna might be the only real cardio they did. At least that's Paul's take on on those studies.

And so his argument is that if you're already sitting on the couch, or if you're going from sitting only on the couch to doing the sauna a few times a week, of course your health is gonna improve. But does it automatically mean that if you're already lifting and, and running and doing CrossFit, that sauna adds the same benefit?

Well, Paul is not convinced. Uh, third argument that he made in that clip is that, uh, you know, he, he is been wearing an ordering or wore an OR ring in the past. Not sure if he still does, and he's noticed a drop in HRV after doing sauna and cold plunging. So contrast therapy for a couple of days, he's HRV would drop.

He's also seen higher blood sugar around as sauna sessions, which again, is the same as I've observed as well. I've not observed a drop in HRV, but definitely a temporary spike in blood sugar. And so from his perspective, you know, if most people are already overstressed and recovery is very often the limiting factor for those people and not stimulus.

So it doesn't make sense to blindly prescribe sauna as this magical longevity tool if your stress bucket is already full and about to overflow. And. In his clip, he also talked a little bit about contrast therapy, which he likes because it makes him feel good, but it's basically combining then heat stress with cold stress, so even more stress than he would get from only sauna bathing.

And so he is worried that, you know, if, especially from a cold plunging perspective, if you plunge too cold. Huge stressor for the system. Plus then if you combine it with very hot, long sauna sessions on top, maybe of already intense training sessions. It's just too much sympathetic load and the. To summarize his view on the contra therapy angle, you know, it can be useful, especially for sedentary people, but if your life and training are already stressful, adding more quote unquote good stress on top might not be the net win you think it is.

And I actually think that's a really important point. But it's only half the story. So let's zoom out a little bit and talk about those points and give you my take and, uh, sprinkling some of the scientific research that I've seen so you can make a better decision on whether or not sauna bathing is good for you.

And spoiler art, I think sauna bathing is still incredibly beneficial for most people. With some nuance here and we're gonna talk about that. Alright, quick pause before we jump in. I need to thank our sponsor Kin, and yes, I know a skincare sponsor. You know, I've never been a fan of New Year's resolutions.

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Please support the show and tell them we sent you, you know, sauna at the end of the day. Is stress. That is absolutely true, but it's also incomplete because exercise is stress. Fasting is stress, cold exposure is stress, lifting weights is stress. All of those are stressors, and I would argue that even if you already, if, if you already have a stressful life, avoiding all of those activities is likely gonna backfire.

You know, I've, I've yet to. Have a day where I'm super stressed and then I go work out or into the sauna or you know, something else. I feel even more stressed. I usually feel almost, not always feel better because the question you have to ask yourself, what are the net adaptations? You know, if you're stressed because of family and financial issues and, and those things, there's probably gonna be little adaptation.

But with sauna bathing, with exercise, with cold exposure, with fasting, there are usually always adaptations, net adaptations that you gain from all of that. Um. And let's, so let's break this down a little bit. Starting with cardiovascular benefits. I mean, there is. Pretty solid evidence that regular sauna use improves blood vessel function, also called endothelial function.

It lowers blood pressure over time. It reduces arterial stiffness, it improves hardware recovery after exertion and expands plasma volume. You know, like you get from endurance training in those adaptations and not just for. Sedentary people, they layer on top of what you get from lifting and conditioning.

It's like saying, you know, going for long walks is not beneficial because you already do CrossFit. Well, I do CrossFit when I do it for an hour a day, and if I sit for the rest of the day, that is not beneficial. It would be significantly more beneficial if I would to get up and walk more throughout the day, you know, during a time where I don't do CrossFit, go in the sauna and do all of the other things that, um.

Offer benefits and are on top of what I get from a CrossFit training. So I don't necessarily think, oh yeah, yeah, you do CrossFit an hour a day so you don't have to go into the sauna. I, I don't think that is, uh, the case. And for someone who trains. Sauna can actually act like a passive zone, two plus heat adaptation.

So especially if you're in a sport or environment where heat tolerance matters, think, you know, running or CrossFit competitions or just living somewhere hot, those adaptations can be a real benefit. And I've noticed myself, you know, we are in Georgia, it's hot and humid in summer and the more asana base, especially during winter, the better ideal end.

And manage the heat in summer. And the same goes with cold exposure. The more cold plunging I do, the less cold I feel in winter because I adapt. Number two is heat shock proteins. You know, those are the cellular bodyguards, and when you sit in a sauna, your body cranks up heat shock proteins, and these guys help repair damage proteins that boost mitochondrial function, that protect against oxidative stress.

And there's a port cell cleanup, kind of like autophagy, like processes are involved there, and in athletes heat, drug proteins can improve performance in the heat. You know, again, if you have competitions in the heat or work workout in the heat, uh, you likely do better when, when you have, uh. Those heat shock proteins active during certain times, it can speed up recovery from hard workouts and increase your resilience for future stressors.

So yes, sauna is a stress, but it's a stress that triggers very specific protective adaptations, dealing with financial issues or with family or what have you. Those other, you know, chronic stressors don't trigger those protective adaptations, so there's a clear difference between those stressors and the ones you get from fasting, cold plunging, sauna, bathing, et cetera.

Number three, blood sugar. You know, that short-term spike that can actually lead to long-term benefits. Paul is absolutely right that you see a temporary glucose elevation after sauna. During the sauna even, and I've noticed this myself, the same, you know, when I do CrossFit, high intensity type of workouts, my blood sugar spikes.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, it's a short term response, a stress response at the end of the day where the body mobilizes glucose to, you know, as a, as a form of energy. But it's also true for, you know, again, many of the other things that, that you might do that are beneficial, like high intensity training, heavy lifting, CrossFit, metcons, et cetera.

And that doesn't necessarily mean it's harming metabolic health. You know, long term irregular heat exposure tends to improve insulin sensitivity and glucose control, not worsen it. And that's an incredibly important aspect because insulin resistance, which is the opposite of being. Insulin sensitive is at the root of most metabolic diseases.

So the more insulin sensitive you are, the less resistant you are, the better it is long term. And sauna bathing can can certainly help with that. Number four, you know, mortality and disease risk. You know, in a lot of those finished studies, even when you adjust for or when the studies adjusted for physical activities, smoking, BMI and socioeconomic status still show that sauna frequency as an.

Independent predictor of lower cardiovascular and or cause mortality and even lower dementia risk. So. Is it a perfect mechanistic, uh, double blind trial? No, but there is enough weight there to say that sauna is very likely beneficial for heart and brain health, especially over years and decades. And number five is sleep.

And that's one that gets lost in the lab data conversation very often. I mean, no sauna raises body temperature. We, we all know that that's one of the. The mechanisms of benefits that deliver, or the mechanism that deliver some of the benefits, raising your core temperature. But then in response to that, your core temperature actually drops, and that drop has been shown to improve deep and slow, deep and slow wave sleep.

So if you sauna base. In the afternoon or before going to bed, it can actually improve your sleep, help you unwind, you know, and, and, and relax and get more restorative sleep. And that alone might outweigh a short term HRV dip you might see on a wearable. So. Who is right? Well, I think Paul's right about allostatic load and the danger of stacking stressors mindlessly.

There's certainly a difference between going in a sauna and pushing yourself to your limit until you almost pass out and using it in a meaningful way. Where you get a good sweat, your heart rate increases a little bit, your core temperature increases, and then you get out and you feel better. You know, every time I go into the sauna, unless, you know, I try to be a hero and stay in there for as long as I can, as the high at the highest temperature that I can, I come out and I feel better.

And everyone I've talked to feels better after coming out of the sauna with better sleep, better recovery, and you know, and that's kind of what the science. Reflects as well. There are measurable health benefits immediately, but also over time. And, but here is the thing, you know that the stress discussion and the benefits, those are not mutually exclusive.

Both can be true. You know, sauna is longevity. Pro cardiovascular, pro metabolic. When dosed. Correctly. But sauna can absolutely backfire if you are already redlining your system and treat it like a badge of honor sport. You know? So rather than sauna good or sauna bad, the real question becomes what is the right sauna dose for you right now, given your training, your stress and recovery.

So, let's talk about some practical tips on, on, um, on how you can make sauna bathing. A beneficial part of your routine without overloading your system. And I would recommend you think of sauna, like training volume. You know, you wouldn't tell anyone just what more and more is better. And it's the same with heat.

But if you are not training hard, if you sit a lot, your step count might be only modest, and sauna is almost certainly going to be a net positive for you. And you know, you, you don't need a complicated protocol there. Just jump into the sauna. If you have access to one, two, to four times a week, you know, somewhere between 10 to 30 minutes sessions at a temperature that makes you sweat, that increases your heart rate, but it doesn't necessarily kill you.

Now if you are. Not very active and this is truly your only cardio workouts that you have available to you or that you make part of your lifestyle, then you can push it. Um, as far as the heat and the session time is concerned, I mean, I often sauna base at 230 degrees Fahrenheit and I stay in there for 20, 25 minutes until I feel like I wanna get out.

You know, just make sure you hydrate well with electrolytes or with a high quality spring water. And you know, if you fall into this group of the not very active, not really working out regularly, then sauna is basically a cardiovascular stimulus you'd otherwise miss. If you are already training hard or if you're like a CrossFit or someone who pushes it hard almost every day or five times a week or so, then I think this is where Paul's concerns really apply and where you need a little bit more strategy.

So think about. Timing, you know, and avoid very long, very hot sauna immediately after brutal workout sessions. If your recovery is already borderline, you know, place sauna on easier training days or separate it from your hardest sessions at least so you don't, uh, pile on more stress on top of what you're already exposed to.

And then think about dosing. You know, you don't need 30 to 40 minutes death sessions, you know, something like a 10 to 15 minute at a solid, but manageable temperature might just be perfect on those days where you are ready. Close to your filling your stress bucket. And as far as frequency is concerned, instead of doing it daily, try two to three times, two to three times per week and see what your HRV sleep performance do over a two to four week block, not just one night or a couple of nights, because your body might just need time to adjust before it bounces back.

That's typically how hormetic stresses work. You know, you stress your body, you stress your body just enough so that it can run. Get more resilient and bounce back stronger than it was before. And, you know, watch signals. Watch your biomarkers, you know, look at your HRV, especially at night. Look at your, uh, resting heart rate, you know, um, and, and take all of those things into account to kind of fine tune what the right sauna protocol might be for you.

If you are highly stressed, you know, with life, kids, business, et cetera. Um, then. Treat maybe the sauna more as a relaxation ritual and not how much I can suffer contest, you know, that means lower temperatures, shorter sessions, potentially, you know, incorporate some breath work, some calming music, maybe chatting with your spouse.

If you know, if you have a sauna that accommodates more than one person, you know, maybe go with your spouse with a friend, have a good time and treat it like a parasympathetic practice, not another heroic kid of stress. And during. Or as part of Paul's clip, there was also that brief discussion of traditional versus infrared sauna.

And Paul mentions he prefers traditionally, he just likes it better over infrared. You know, there are a couple of points here that I, I wanna make. At the end of the day, I think you should pick the sauna type that you can be most consistent with. Whatever you enjoy most, whatever is easier for you to use on a regular basis.

That's the one you should be getting. You can get benefits from. A high quality traditional sauna from a high quality infrared sauna. Uh, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. They have a different mechanism. Yes, they have slightly different benefits, but you can get roughly the same benefits depending on what temperatures you choose, the quality of the heating elements and infrared sauna and some other.

Factors from either one. So don't go nuts over it and pick what you like best, what you like using best, because whatever you like better is likely the one you're gonna end up using more consistently. And consistency is key. As with so many other things. The bottom line here really is that pulse has valid concerns.

You know, sauna is a stressor, much like exercise, fasting, cold plunging. Um. All of the other things, all of the other hermetic stressor, sauna and heat exposure is a stressor as well. It can lower your HRV short term and it can cause a short term spike in blood sugar. All of that is perfectly fine and not really a cause for worry.

You know, if you are already overtrained and undersleep and super stressed out, you know, don't push yourself in the sauna until you pass out. Take it more as a relaxation ritual. There is. If you get the temperature right, if you get the session time right, you get out of that sauna feeling better than you felt before.

I promise you, you, you, you know, it's just a matter of finding the right dosing. And for me personally, you know, I like to sauna base. At very high temperatures. Even when I'm stressed, I tend to feel better getting out, especially if I end it then in cold, so I get like the counter. And maybe speaking about cold, because Paul also mentioned in the video a little bit that he prefers warmer temperatures, like 50 degrees Fahrenheit.

Uh, that appears to be, you know, the optimal and you don't need to cold plunge in very cold water, like freezing cold water with ice floating around you. And that's just, you know, like an ego kind of thing. I disagree, you know? Yes. Colder does not necessarily always mean better, but one thing that I've noticed, and that is.

Has also been scientifically proven and it's very easy for anyone to prove if you just do it. You get used to whatever temperature you choose. You know, if I bathe cold plunge all the time in 50 degree cold water, I get used to that water. If I cold plunge in 33 degree cold water with ice floating around me, I get used to that because I've gotten used to that.

But you can also get. Unused to it. Again, if you don't do it for a while, like right now, because of our move and everything, I've not cold plunged in weeks and I feel cold again. Just the thought of getting into 30 3D cold water, I'm like, no. I'd rather pick 50 degrees and feel better with it. Absolutely true right now, but it does not mean that I cannot adjust.

And go back to feeling just perfectly fine in 33 degree cold water. So it really depends on a little bit on, on how much time you give it, on how often you do it. The more often you do it, the, you know, the more you get used to it. And then whatever temperature you choose, you'll be fine with. You know, it's, I, I don't think that you need to, to stick to 50 degrees and that's the, the lowest you should ever get.

I think that's. Just not practically and, and doesn't reflect reality. What? Pick something that's mildly challenging to you, that's challenging enough for you, but not so challenging that you stop doing it. But the body is incredibly resilient. It adapts incredibly quickly. You know, if, if you are like me and you.

Just try to jump into the coldest, you know, and, and get used to it as quickly as possible. Do that. There is no harm in doing it. I've been doing that perfectly fine. Didn't overload my stress bucket whatsoever. But if you're someone who has maybe less stress, resilience, who you know, doesn't have the mantle capacity to deal with increased or with incredible discomfort, start with 50 degrees and then get colder over time.

I promise you. At some point you'll end up at 33 degrees and you won't even bother with it. It doesn't, you know, it's not gonna, not gonna freak you out anymore. So that's my take on sauna bathing and cold plunging a little bit. There is no harm. I think there is a net positive for almost everybody if you find the right dosing, if you don't overdo it, if you do it smartly, yes, it is a stressor.

Yes, it can overload your stress bucket if you're already red lining, but only if you sauna bathe too hot and for too long if you do it right at the proper temperature, right session time. It can be done. I would, as I would say, daily without any negative impact, and you'll adapt. You get a lot of the benefits out of it, so don't be afraid if you just bought a sauna and now you think like, oh, now it's, it's unhealthy.

Suddenly it is not. Sauna bathing is a great thing. It's a great tool. I've been doing it for a long time. A lot of people have been doing it for a long time. If you do it right, everything is gonna be good. Don't worry about it. Enjoy Asana. Until next time.